zion cannot be built up
This is a follow up to the video I posted yesterday in LDS church video teaches about war:
Your belief that there is no connection between the means and the end is a great mistake. Through that mistake even men who have been considered religious have committed grievous crimes. Your reasoning is the same as saying that we can get a rose through planting a noxious weed. If I want to cross the ocean, I can do so only by means of a vessel; if I were to use a cart for that purpose, both the cart and I would soon find the bottom. ‘As is the God, so is the faithful follower’ is a maxim worth considering. Its meaning has been distorted and men have gone astray.
M. K. Gandhi, Hind Swaraj, Chap. XVI, 51-52
Verily, verily, I say unto you, this is my gospel; and ye know the things that ye must do in my church; for the works which ye have seen me do that shall ye also do; for that which ye have seen me do even that shall ye do.
Jesus to the Nephites (3 Nephi 27:21)
The means may be likened to a seed, and the end to a tree; and there is just the same inviolable connection between the means and the end as there is between the seed and the tree. I am not likely to obtain the result flowing from the worship of God by laying myself prostrate before Satan. If, therefore, anyone were to say: ‘I want to worship God; it does not matter that I do so by means of Satan’, it would be set down as ignorant folly. We reap exactly as we sow.
M. K. Gandhi, Hind Swaraj, Chap. XVI, 51-52
“And Zion cannot be built up unless it is by the principles of the law of the celestial kingdom; otherwise I cannot receive her unto myself.”
Jesus to the Latter-day Saints (D&C 105:5)
as is the God, so is the faithful follower
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[...] nonviolence by mormongandhi on June 19, 2009 In comments I got from publishing my last article zion cannot be built up, I was slightly frustrated at the suggestion that Jesus was/is a soldier. Even if it is just a [...]
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[...] “While the extremist sees physical violence against his enemies as a sacred duty (see Zion cannot be built up), the peacemaker strives to sublimate violence, resisting efforts to legitimate it on religious [...]
Let me remind us all Peace is Mutual. even to have peace with ourselves we must have peace with God.
On the other side of things I must ask you about your thoughts on War?
If War is Always Wrong, then how would you deal with Tyranny and Genocide?
Is there ever a righteous time to War?
God bless,
-Ditchu
Well, we have not dealt with Burma (Tyranny), and we did not lift a finger in Rwanda (Genocide). We haven’t done anything in Chechnya, and Darfur is still ongoing. So to answer your question: war is always wrong and to this day we have done very little with regards to tyranny and genocide.
On the other hand, ‘we’ – although I demonstrated against – did take the fight to Iraq and to Afghanistan, but it would be too easy to say that these were liberation wars. They were respectively wars of retribution and of preemptive strike – neither were wars of liberation, meaning that I have yet to see a righteous war out there.
War is always wrong. There are other means by which we may know peace and achieve freedom: these must be in accordance with the end that we try to achieve. “Behold, doth he cry unto any, saying: Depart from me? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; but he saith: Come unto me all ye ends of the earth, buy milk and honey, without money and without price”.
And why give up one’s free agency by entering the army for example? ‘Because one has to? Because it is the right thing to do?’ – was Jesus a soldier? Did he achieve freedom through war? Why do mormons try to be perfect on all facets of life, but when it comes to violence and doing the work of the devil, we say ‘there is no harm in this’ (2 Nephi 28:8)
Peace be with you.
-mormongandhi
Just a few things.
First if it is your stance that All war is to be avoided, and that you can expect peace with all beings even the tyrants that would wipe you off of “their” earth, then you can expect a short life and a long line of meaningless death. But I guess that is the end result of peace after all… In Death we may find the peace we seek in the struggle of life.
Was Jesus a soldier, Yes he was. In the war against injustice and evil, wrong doing and mistreatment of people, he was a soldier of God his Father in a war against the political and social powers that had morphed into tyrannies of their own. The cast system is nothing more that a child of those illegitimate Political/religious leaders doing more harm to their peoples than serving them.
Life itself is a war, a struggle against the monotony of numbing mantra of peace peace peace, unto death.
Let’s look at it in simpler context, is it always wrong to kill. It is breaking a commandment, but is there a time that no action is worse than a killing action?
It is all about one’s personal values. Me as an example: I would not blink at the duty assigned me to protect my family, even if it meant taking a life… even if it meant sin upon myself, and me personally taking the punishment due to breaking that commandment, for I would be remiss in my duty to protect my wife and child. What is yet better is that I would rather put myself in harm’s way for their protection, I would rather be the one shot at and bombed and my soul torn apart by the evils that pervade this world, if for nothing more than their safety. It is nothing more than what we ask of our soldiers, that they lay down their life for us, that they protect us.
Stay not in your illusions, the six aircraft attempted to be hijacked (four successfully) on 11, September 2001 AD. was a plan hatched and prepared in the country of Iraq and the agents whom devised these devious plans hide in the afore mentioned countries. The ruling peoples, at the time, of these governments and the hate mongering zealots want no peace with us while we still have our freedom to practice our religion or freedom from the instituted practice of their religious opinions, unless we (any opposition to the plan of satin to remove our choices) are killed off to the last generation, every mother, father, child and baby… Dead or under their fanatical religious rule, with no choice.
Now to your question: “why give up one’s free agency, by entering the army for example?” You are wrong if you think entering the military is giving up one’s agency. Does one take an oath upon entering the military? Yes, and in the U.S. it is to protect the constitution of the United States, which is our modern day Title of Liberty. In essence the oath is to protect the agency of all peoples. It is the highest law in the military, if one is given an order that breaks it, That order is an unlawful order and should not be obeyed. There in we can see how agency not only exists in the military, but rules it.
Peace between us, and sleep well as others choose to keep watch at the walls of your freedom.
God bless you,
-D
The anti-nephi-lehies had a short life, but their death was not meaningless. We do not have to die however to find the peace we seek – the promise of peace in this life is real. OK, so Jesus was a spiritual ‘soldier’. But I am not in favor of using the war analogy to the fight against evil. Violence is evil, conflict is not – and in that case, our conflict with and ensuing fight against violence – be it structural, cultural or physical – should be primordial. Being against violence does not mean that one is against action. I believe in nonviolent direct action and being pushed to my extremities as you describe above would probably choose to do the same as you, but ‘without recourse to violence, if possible’. I hear you say ‘with recourse to violence, if necessary’. We are pulled in two directions in this life, yes. The question is which is the direction we would like to choose: violence or nonviolence.
Fanatical religious rule? Did you read your last post? Sounds pretty extreme to me. I disagree with the constitution of the United States being a modern day title of liberty. Inspired, perhaps. Scripture, I doubt it. The dangers of patriotism rooted in religious discourse cannot be overstated. I have myself been in the army and know that the deconstruction process of the individual in order to attain unquestioning obedience result in the giving up of one’s moral agency, one’s free will. Today I would rather be in jail, as christians of old, and suffer the consequences of not going ‘the extra mile’ to obey the laws of the land, having now made – as others have done before – a covenant of nonviolence.
I have done my fair share of watching over the walls of freedom and have seen slaves on both sides of the wall. What to do?
Which Army were you in and was it by your own choice that you entered this Army?
Please, understand I am in no way making a joke of poking fun here, as It is very posible that you may have been conscripted into this Army and also possible that the Army in question was of a different Country/soverenty.
If it was by your own choice to join where has your agency been violated?
I was drafted into the Norwegian Air Force, but I am not sure whether it is relevant or not which country it was – as Norway is considered, I suppose, to be part of the ‘Free World’. My only possibility to avoid the military would have been in my case to be a conscientious objector. The LDS church had taught me not to, so I went. In fact, I never even thought of conscientious objection as an option at the time – although it clearly is. And then starts the dehumanization process – I myself worked as a base camp officer for more than a year, so I know. The aim is still unquestioning obedience to orders – for what other reason would one kill? That’s the point with most militaries. What about Abu Ghraib? check out http://www.lucifereffect.com/ for ‘How good people turn evil’.
Well, here in the US all branches of our Millitary use the same oath and every sodier must take it, that oath holds the sodier to protect our constitution which is a title of liberty. Also contious objection is a valid choice and thus would keep agancy in tact.
As for your question: “unquestioning obedience to orders – for what other reason would one kill?” Lets see… Defence of ones Liberty, Life, Family, and in some cases Land. If you are LDS it is easy to see this displayed in the Book of Mormon, if you are non-LDS Christian then the bible would suggest that we would kill if God sends us into a land for the purpose of clearing it for our people (Jewish settlement of Canaan).
Dealing with religion… If your Hindu Death and war are the ends not the means of life, it is the goal of life.
But back to the topic at hand: There are many reasons we may choose to kill, or the considered righteous or semi-righteous situations, one may find they are willing in the defense of another. that is the reason for a millitary force… Though it has been used as the aggressor by some rulers it should not be used that way.
Peace seems simple and logical. If we all would just have peace with eachother it would work. Peace is mutual in the respect that it cannot be one sided, so we must mutually have peace. Peace seems simple and logical, until greed and pride get involved. The initial aggressors in our society are ruted in these evils. As Peace is mutual you cannot have peace with someone who ultimately does not wish to have peace with you. This is how a millitary show of force has insured peace in the past, when one group wants to harm another the opposing force steps in and gives the aggressor insentive to stay their hand, and commit to peace (albeit temporary). Once that force is removed the original aggresor (if not removed) will toss their power about and attempt to cause harm again.
God bless,
-Ditchu
I am LDS (latter day satyagrahi – not Latter-day Saint), and I am therefore aware of what the Book of Mormon and the Bible teach. I do not believe however that what is recorded in those books, that what happened in the past, makes it necessarily right in the present (on the contrary!). Jesus taught in the sermon on the mount and to the nephites about nonviolence, and did away with or fulfilled the old law ‘an eye for an eye’. This is what this site is about: the teachings of Jesus, also from the Book of Mormon and Doctrine and Covenants, as Leo Tolstoy, Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King might have taught them. I doubt that their interpretation of the teachings of Christ are less valid than those of leaders in the LDS movement today, or even of those taught by prophets of old. Many LDS want to emulate Jesus in their lives, but yet on the issue of violence few mormons are committed to nonviolence. I find that disturbing, perhaps even alarming.
Now the point for me is not really to be in an argument with you on whether or not military is a good thing or not. I think it is not – because it teaches war, and not peace. D&C teaches: “proclaim peace and renounce war” and that’s what the site is trying to expand on. Violence is never justified, if one is committed to nonviolence. If you feel your free agency and the agency of others is not violated by the military or by what the military does, I suppose that is your pejorative. But as for me and my house, …
-mormongandhi
MG,
Peace be between us.
I do not wish to stir up contention but wanted to offer a different point of view.
I have been in the mind set before that War is Bad and Peace is Good… Well, I can still agree with that philosophy…
War may be bad, Violence may be bad, but without it you will never know the Peace you seek. Things really are as Lehi said, you cannot have the good if you do not accept the bad.
I will honor your admirable attempt to bring about more peace in this tromultous time, I just want to arm you with the understanding that the Millitary is not the evil, nor is the actions a sodier takes if within the bounds of their duty. It may be unwise to let a few political leaders hold soo much power over a military, but that is how these systems are set up. Laso Know that life is a strugle, and the ultimate peace we all seek comes only after Death or the second comming of Christ, and even then there may be more death and troubling times.
God bless you in your endevors to bring this world into more peace,
-Ditchu
Ditchu,
I return your greetings of peace and thank you for your conciliatory words. I was however ‘pushed’ to write a new article today where I had to look at your statement that Jesus is a soldier. See below.
May we experience peace and justice before we die! To work with it or against it, that is the question?
-mormongandhi